So lets talk about cheese.

[Narw]

And Narw, the average Joe you speak of has the ability to improve as long as he's willing to. If the average Joe loses 50 matches in a row against the same strategy he shouldn't complain. That's his fault then, not the fault of the game

Im all for saying "trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me".

You can't just say "oh this is lame they shouldn't be able to do this" just because you can't counter it.

5 Racks reapers is inbalanced and he should't be able to do it. And i can say that with straight face. This is still a game made by humans, and there are flaws in it. I will give an example.

5 rack reaper's force zerg to go heavy into roaches and get zerglings speed and play from one base and do that all in pressure of one mistake ending with you losing the match. (if zerg goes fast expand hatch half of mistake will cost him a game) At same time terran have the advantage of total map control, contain and doing whatever the hell he wants. When zerg reach critical mass or roaches to deal with reapers and be save the marouders push comes (which you get from same tech structure and being totally safe to any form of harras from zerg side). Marouder's push ends the game. This is cheesy and disgusting game play that relies totally on inbalance in game. Terran dosnt sacriface ANYTHING by going this build. If zerg manages to get mutas up with terran NOT scouting this with his reapers then zerg is way better player then terran. Power of this cheesy build however will let you propably beat 90% of zerg player's of same skill of yours. 90% percentage i made by myself, rest not.

This is generally the type of cheese i am strongly against. I dont have anything vs proxy pylon contain, it forces me to play creativly. I dont mind  "factory lifting with fast hellion is considered cheesy as well, or the hidden pylon voidray rush, or 11hidden1 banshee build, or fast dts and so on" couse every single one of those is foult of a player. At some point you just realize that if other side player dosnt have enough of units, or strange choke there is something strange going on, its also quite late in game and generally if i would lose to stuff like that i would be angry at myself for shit play, not on opponent play. There is load's of time to scout that stuff, you should have way's to deal with it anyway.

Thats not the case with that example reapers build. I'm not angry at myself if i lose to that. I want the person that does that to go eat a dick.

[Draconis]

Can't you really think of any other solution to 5rax reapers than mass speed roaches?
I mean you have overlords mate, you see them coming. I for one just held my ground in front of a 4rax reaper push with about 6-7 spinecrawlers 4 queens and speedlings. Having expo in the same time. Unfortunately for him he did go marauders after and I as a risky cheesy player went mutas. I guess mutas speedlings kind owned his build. By the time he started poping marines I had about 11 mutas in his base with speedlings knocking at the door.
True I got lucky... basically cause I lost to the same strat 3 games earlier, still I learned.

Anyway, I think we can all work to figure counters to annoying strats.

[Yathezai]

Okay, thanks for elaborating. I'm pretty certain however that everyone will agree that imbalances are not good. But what one person sees as imbalance, the other person will see it as "if I don't make that mistake that costs me the game, I'll win!" and that person will consider it a part of skill. It seems Palmar is more leaning towards "if a strategy at my skill level is beatable, it's not imbalanced" and you are leaning more towards "if, at the same skill level, a certain strategy is way more rewarding, it's imbalanced". It's not your exact words, but how it seems you two more or less look at it in a different way. Fix me if I'm wrong!

But who knows, maybe there are strategies that you haven't thought of yet and you'll turn it around the next time...

[Narw]

Can't you really think of any other solution to 5rax reapers than mass speed roaches?
I mean you have overlords mate, you see them coming. I for one just held my ground in front of a 4rax reaper push with about 6-7 spinecrawlers 4 queens and speedlings. Having expo in the same time. Unfortunately for him he did go marauders after and I as a risky cheesy player went mutas. I guess mutas speedlings kind owned his build. By the time he started poping marines I had about 11 mutas in his base with speedlings knocking at the door.
True I got lucky... basically cause I lost to the same strat 3 games earlier, still I learned.

Anyway, I think we can all work to figure counters to annoying strats.

Im afraid we wont have a talking here. If terran sucks so badly to not abuse that you had to spend 700 minerals and  7 drones  at immobile defence, let you made em, you using another 600 minerals on queen, did let you get expo, let you spend 600 minerals on 4 queens and didnt scouted your spire then allow to made you made 11 MUTAS (LOL) do you seriously belive he was worth anything more then SHIT? Gz on you won vs 30 apm retard.

[Abyiss]

I got proxyed (Barreks flown into the corner of my base) (walled in by protoss cannons), and that just made me learn to properly scout round my base.

And as such have not been proxyed since.

In reguard to Marien+marorders...hi my names bainlings. or later down the line infestors.

I think its all about practise and like everyone has said .. scouting.

One thing i always forget to do is get your speed up grade for overlords or grab an overseer with in 10mins  and just run it past the toss/terron wall to see what hes up too. your lose the unit by will see that 5rax .. or x3 stargates and can respond approperatly.

[Palmar]

I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.

The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.

[Draconis]

I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.

The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.

Fair enough, I might have went wrong, though I dropped the first 3 spines when I saw the first 2 raxes with tech. My defense was 6-7 spines and four queens + speedlings while chasing and running around my base. Though I dropped the minerals on spines and had gas for mutas. It was Xel'Naga Caverns, I was top and used to block the spire in my top left corner of the base blocking him and having one of the spines in range.

I didnt go for roaches cause they are crappy with no upgs and reapers have bigger range, even though they would rock with 1 dmg upg and speed vs reapers.

Anyway, I havent fought against 5 rax reapers terran with zerg more than 3, maybe 4 times. So you obviously know better.


To continue the subject... what else is cheesy out there?! I wanna know and try it out

[Draconis]

You can see how annoying the reapers are vs roaches you can also see the range difference.
Hence my last suggestion, though I'm not saying that I did right or anything.

[Palmar]

I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.

The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.

Fair enough, I might have went wrong, though I dropped the first 3 spines when I saw the first 2 raxes with tech. My defense was 6-7 spines and four queens + speedlings while chasing and running around my base. Though I dropped the minerals on spines and had gas for mutas. It was Xel'Naga Caverns, I was top and used to block the spire in my top left corner of the base blocking him and having one of the spines in range.

I didnt go for roaches cause they are crappy with no upgs and reapers have bigger range, even though they would rock with 1 dmg upg and speed vs reapers.

Anyway, I havent fought against 5 rax reapers terran with zerg more than 3, maybe 4 times. So you obviously know better.


To continue the subject... what else is cheesy out there?! I wanna know and try it out

problem with your idea is that you then you need what... 4 spines at main and expansion, and 4 queens...

that's 1200 minerals and 8 drones?

if you're 1200 minerals and 8 drones behind, you've already lost the game.

[Draconis]

Well you get 2 queens anyway, vs terran or protoss I get 3 queens anyway.
The whole build was over 5 mins of harrasing so we were like 12-14 mins in the game when I had all the queens and spines. So on a 3-4 mins timespan with almost 2 bases 1300 minerals aint that much.
The basic thing is that he didnt scout/see the spire and I got lucky vs the mara. If he would have transitioned in mmm rather than full mara was over.

[Draconis]

Not to mention queens are great vs reapers, they can get tons of hits and heal themselves. Spines have range... the longer I'm thinking, at my lvl I did an ok choice

[Draconis]

I cant edit so I'm sorry for the spam ... but I've even seen Demaga doing the same strat (spamming zerglins and sending em after the reapers, buyng time for the spire to finish) just with less spines in the last 64 player Korean SC cup selection or smth.

SO there! Ill even try to find one of the replays.

[Yoica]

but I've even seen Demaga doing the same strat <cut> just with less spines in the last 64 player Korean SC cup selection or smth.

I highlighted the important part.