So lets talk about cheese.

[Palmar]

I'm going to link some of the best players in the world using cheesy tactics in  Brood War. Remember, these guys (best... july... reach... flash....) they are miles better than anyone playing starcraft 2 at the moment.

Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

[Narw]

Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!

Do you even read what you write? Im not talking about 200 apm player's, i'm speaking from average joe perspective. From average joe the zerg perspective willy the protoss that makes proxy pylon at 8 behind the rock's before even moving probe to your base isnt there to make the game better, he is there to win the game couse he knows that most of zerg player's  won't scout at 7th drone and wont have a chance vs his so immense and skill requiring 2 zealot push. And from MY expieriance willy the protoss will have terrible micro and macro and that's why he trying to win in 6 minuts.

(EDIT: Missed "wont" before 7th )

[Palmar]

Well time to stop sucking and losing to cheese over and over again then

Basically people who whine about cheese are usually just as terrible as the people who do cheese.

[Daekesh]

Seems Narw is confusing bad players who use cheese to win with cheesing itself.

[Narw]

So just becouse i find cheese disgusting you assume i suck? So place for "sincere discussion" is here  only if i  agree with your point of view?

And lucky for me Blizzard agree's with MY and loads of other players point of view, not yours, thats why zealot making time will be incrased and same thing will happen to reaper.

[Daekesh]

If you don't like early rushing cheese stuff, play in the practice league with all its rocks?

[Palmar]

That doesn't change the fact that cheesy tactics that rely on surprise, come early and are all-in will still exist in the game. I thought the topic was if cheesy tactics were good for the game or not!

I didn't know we were discussing a specific cheesy tactic that may or may not be too strong and hard to counter in the current situation.

I'm all for fixing things that are imbalanced. I do think 5-rax reaper is a bit too strong against zerg for example.

But let's not confuse the topics of cheese and balance.

Basically, there will always be early aggressive all-in tactics, and if you don't see them coming you will lose. If they nerf X, then Y will just be the next cheese. What I'm saying is that cheesy tactics are the only thing that prevent me from autopiloting drones and just macro-festing it up every game.... well that and timing pushes.

Edit: No, I don't think you suck. In fact I'm pretty sure you are in the competition for the best IE player along with myself and sparrowhawk. "stop sucking" was only in reference to slacking on scouting.

[Abyiss]

Void rays.

/thread

[Narw]

If you don't like early rushing cheese stuff, play in the practice league with all its rocks?

But you see, i dont have problem winning vs cheesers usually, i even wrote here earlier what i do and it works like, i dont know 90% of time at my mmr

"In 1v1 i just assume that at least 50% of players will try to "outplay" me in first 6-10 minutes of game and send early drone to scout (first or second drone i got, depending on map). If he dosnt go cheese i wont be so badly behind, if he goes for cheese it usually wins me match/saves a lot of nerves."

Im not amazing player so 1 drone early game wont put me at horrid disadvantage later in game and it will stop the early push.

What I'm saying is that cheesy tactics are the only thing that prevent me from autopiloting drones and just macro-festing it up every game.... well that and timing pushes.

And i agree with that, but this game is so fresh that there are quite a few inbalanced mechanincs in it atm, and most of early cheese play relies on abusing em.

[Palmar]

Well maybe it's just a different mindset...

I've always dealt with problems instead of avoiding them or whining about them.

And I consider cheesers mostly free points! I have like 80/20 win ratio against cheesy tactics. (I lose to good timing pushes)

[Draconis]

Narw - I added you to friends in sc2  Cool... lets have a game and try to cheese me

Yeah, i will make a prox hatch.

Well I was thinking zerg's cheese was the 6-pool or smth

I mean come on, if you can not scout on a small map then you deserve to get cheesed by someone who knows the map and tactic better than you.

So i heard  that proxy gateway is overwhelming vs zerg on the internets, ima gonna try, ima skilled. No.

If you do scout early you can see the gate before it comes out. If you scout with your 6th drone rather than the 12th you will have your zerglins out before he gets the first zealot out. Not to mention that it wins you the game.

Not to mention cheese is fun and entertaining especially when it fails and you are forced to keep playing out of the box, out of the regular in order to remain in the game and maybe win.

What the hell is fun and entertaining in mindvision build you assume you do before the gates open? You are aware 90% of cheesers dosnt scout you? They just assume you go for standard build?

Well if you assume always keep in mind you have at least 50% chances of being wrong (considering there is only one 'standard' build). That being said, its only your fault. And cheesy tactics arent made to win games but rather balance them in your favour. Now, if you lose to them it is only your fault. Ofc many noobs do them, but the same way they learned how to do those tactics others can learn to sacrifice a drone to circle around the map searching for proxies. Pros do it, they copy, why cant the loser copy the solution as well?

And Kage, what you miss from your point is the fact that some people might like short active games, that force you to micro and macro better and continuous.

What?

A proxy near your base forces you to act accordingly, to change your strat, micro more and macro in the same time.

I don't get it, Draconis is speaking so much truth it hurts and you think he's trolling?

I'm obviously blind then couse i fail to see that "so much truth". What i see is trying to justify a way of playing this game that kinda ruins the fun. Ask yourself why you barely see any kind of cheese replay's on sc2 replay sites? Maybe couse its way more interesting to actually watch a game full of micro AND macro, which usually is a 15-35 mins game and not all in 6 mins build?

Actually you do see cheese in loads of pro's games. But they counter them effectively.



I totally agree with Palmar regarding the cheese tactics - there will always be cheese tactics unless you make everyone immune in the first 5 minutes of the game and add some other retarded rules. In which case someone will probably build somehow to block you, mass cannon your base or smth and then go mass carriers with mothership.

And dont take everything personal

Peace!

[Narw]

Well maybe it's just a different mindset...

I've always dealt with problems instead of avoiding them or whining about them.

And I consider cheesers mostly free points! I have like 80/20 win ratio against cheesy tactics. (I lose to good timing pushes)

The main problem here is that everyone here assumes i have problem playing vs cheese, which i havent wrote a SINGLE time. My main problem is that i prefer to have one 25 mins game when i can work on micro and macro and see my mighty roaches (they look so sweet!) march upon the filty protoss instead of having 4 games in row from which  each one ends in 6 minuts of same boring stuff.

If you do scout early you can see the gate before it comes out. If you scout with your 6th drone rather than the 12th you will have your zerglins out before he gets the first zealot out. Not to mention that it wins you the game.

Thanks for giving me advice i gave to myself about 2-3 week's ago.

[Draconis]

I'm going to link some of the best players in the world using cheesy tactics in  Brood War. Remember, these guys (best... july... reach... flash....) they are miles better than anyone playing starcraft 2 at the moment.

Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!

Btw I did love that 4d pool , was totally epic!

I've seen in many commentaries that not only t1 rushing with something is considered cheesy. The factory lifting with fast hellion is considered cheesy as well, or the hidden pylon voidray rush, or 11hidden1 banshee build, or fast dts and so on.
Basically they are considered cheesy cause you cant see them with a straight forward scout or with a scan.

Cheese is bold and risky - hence fun! In the end everyone can do whatever he/she wants as long as its not maphacking, dischacking or smth like that.

[Yathezai]

Palmar speaks the truth!

Especially in 1v1 you have everything under your own control. There's no RNG in Starcraft (right?) and even though "cheese" might be easier to play than "non-cheese"  at the same level, it's not impossible or extremely hard to beat it. Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I haven't even played rated games yet, but from everything I've watched, seen and read Starcraft is so insanely more balanced and based on skill than say, WoW PvP...

Unless you want to argue that there's a certain tactic that is impossible to beat (and even then, you can mirror it), there's always a way to win. You can't just say "oh this is lame they shouldn't be able to do this" just because you can't counter it. It's a competitive game and if you don't want to beaten by cheese you should work on getting better so that it won't happen again.

And Narw, the average Joe you speak of has the ability to improve as long as he's willing to. If the average Joe loses 50 matches in a row against the same strategy he shouldn't complain. That's his fault then, not the fault of the game. I see your point but I believe people shouldn't complain about a problem when there's (especially at the lower brackets) multiple solutions for it.

I just saw your new post Narw. You're right, that's probably a lot more fun. But shouldn't cheese happen less and less the higher you play? This should work as a good motivation then to get even better! 

[Draconis]

Now this is what I talk about

Hope you enjoy this one