Mafia II - Story of the Iron Edge - Ship Deck

[kawe]

Emptyy, that's one wonderful post! That post is exactly the kind of post that shows you're pretty darn likely to be Imperial, just by it being, no matter how you look at it, very useful to us. I was beginning to wonder about you since, until now, your only post was that tiny non-entity you included in the big quotes list.

It's fair enough if you're not going to keep going with such hugely time consuming collations of stuff, but regular posting with collections of what you're thinking and why will I think be very useful.

Shiftey, you're right on a few things; excuses are generally something to keep a very keen eye on. Also though, Dell says, so far in the day there are definitely a few people who need to post more, including Mouseh. You could, going on post count alone, equally level your gaze at Emptyy; quality of post is important though, and the posts of both Emptyy (especially Emptyy) and Mouseh's have been, in my eyes, of a good quality with even-handed and understandable statements.

It's true the captaincy is a very tough question right now. The concerns about me being captain have clearly been well thought out and make good sense, from both points of view. Life would, of course, be a lor easier if we could select the captain after the first night with that much more information. Of the people who've ran so far there're no others I feel particularly safe with, at least not more than Mouseh. Vdti, on an individual level, I'm actually quite comfortable with, however the nature of the votes that were cast for him being stated as being done for a reason so paper thin make me a lot more cautious about considering it. If emptyy is planning on being more active, given the strength of his big ol' post there might be worthwhile to consider for captain. I'll also be interested in what Mouseh has to say next.

TTaM basically going emo rather than attempting a proper refutation of any kind is, however, making it trickier and trickier for me to keep an open mind. I was about to share Vorte's angle on this, but I think we're now into the game and I agree that avoiding IRC sourcing the more we play is fairer for all people participating in the game, and even more so for those not playing but enjoying observing and trying to work things out for fun. So get on here and post Vorte, you lazy ginger.


In any case I think all in all we've managed to have a very good start for the first 24 hours of play, and the ball is now very much rolling.

[Veilas]

It's harder to keep up with this thread then i thought,
In my eyes the captain would need to be someone not too thickheaded,not too hasty and someone who  can give a good judgment. Delling being closest to that folowed by Kawe!(I'll switch for Kawe if it's needed for him to win seeing as Delling isn't doing too well in his campaign)
And Dell  got Cwave last game ( it was kind of obvious that he was mafia).
As for the lynch I'll go with Arches.(same reason as Hug)

##Support: Delling
##Vote: Archz

[Mouseh]

Really good post Emptyy, thanks for summing it all up. There were some of real good points in these last few pages too. My view: It seems to me that we have two choices here, picking between voting for the people who have been playing pretty poorly so far, overly aggressive and careless (Arches, TTaM, Chip) as even if they were empire losing them wouldn't hurt us much as losing some other, in relative terms 'more valuable' player.

Second choice is voting for the someone whos doing damn GOOD job (at supposed rebel role), who could be dangerous and real threat to the Empire (much more than the players above). Now finding those is a real challenge. Emptyy made a good point about Eetion for example (he is indeed trying a bit too much to prove hes an Empire), but players like  Kawe or Dell could fit the role as well.

@ Shiftey's post:

I made 2 posts yes but so did like 60% of players. I guess I could have spammed more but I guess thats not who I am, I don't like to spam or troll or to post only cuz of posting, I don't talk much on irc either and I'm always there. I guess I'm quiet as a person and if that making me suspicious so be it. I had intention to post more tho, i'll try to fix it.

You said (on irc i think) how i overly praised Kawe and dissed other candidates. Thats not true. I only said the facts. That hes very intelligent (I said the same for Tyler and Delling) and that he was very good at last game. I also said how he would be great asset to the Empire if hes chosen for the Capt. role BUT that he would be even greater weapon for the rebels on that place if hes a rebel.

Next you are saying that after being accused by you Kawe offers me as a candidate. Thats not true either. I just checked the posts back and it was Tyler who first suggested me as a capt. It looks to me that your just trying hard to find connections even when there are none.

I'm also sure you will find everyone who start getting votes for the captain role suspicious. And I kinda understand that, its easy to find reasons when your looking hard for them.

[Shiftey]

You have to understand one thing. You are being voted for as captain. But you have yet to give any contribution to the discussion at all. You barely speak, you are quiet. Yet you were suggested by 2 good players as viable candidate? It certainly doesnt make sense to me at all.

I am sorry I overlooked that tyler's post, funny you got me on the case now.

Checking tyler's posts now and they are truly awful of a quality compared to his previous game. His posts are generally just inciting lynching (from his posts it is becoming obvious he doesnt know there's no need for majority for a lynch).

Saying "we have to lynch this round" in almost every single post makes me wanna think that "we" stands for "rebels". Tyler was also the one starting the vote bandwagon against Archz based solely on fact that: "Archz is looking like a good target. We have to lynch every day. If he is imperial he is bad. Lets do it."

Yet again we can see the "we have to lynch every day" recurring theme in his posts.
He also supports kawe for captaincy, just for the record, which could connect the dots with my previous post.

Basically tyler's posts are not posts of a good imperial, he's not helping in any way and suggesting someone with such a lack of any valuable contribution as Mouseh for captain is yet another really weird step for tyler.

All in all, it seems like there's a completely different player, suddenly from open minded villager he becomes a random non-sense screaming automaton with zero substantial contribution to anything.

[Daekesh]

Damn cats waking me up ta 5am!

A few people have said now that I'm playing much the same as I was last game - I don't see it, personally.  I haven't made any accusations.  I made one post detailing my thoughts (with absolutely no assumptions or accusations) on what people had said so far and suddenly I'm a rebel traitor.  These were not outlandish, specious allegations, but simple observations. I posted a picture to explain a reference to delling and noted that people were posting pretty fast - much like many ppl have done here before.

What I do notice is that Kawe is playing very much like I did last game.  He opens the game with veiled accusations to many people and then choose somebody to pick apart and rally against with specious arguments and rhetoric - exactly what I did to Vorte last round.

He's repeatedly said that voting early is a good way to force reactions - Isn't that exactly exactly what I did?  force reactions by making observations?  Do you know what else voting early does?  It allows the mafia to pick a target (perhaps somebody with suspicions a bit too close to home?) and a railroad it, just like I did last round to Vorte.  And who does he pick?  The first person to try to make an analytical post examining what's been going on so far. Even the teamliquid guide says that people voted for in the first round are unlikely to be rebels. Why?  Because when somebody that they don't like comes along, they jump on the bandwagon and hey presto, we have a possible lynch.  If the mafia want me lynched, do u really want that to happen?

People also seem confused about what I posted to Arch.  I was explaining to him why people found him suspicious.  Not accusing him of anything.  It was Kawe that brought up what he said in the first place and cast doubt on him, not me.

I don't see how people are calling me over-aggressive when with the likes of Chippen.  Chippen made baseless accusations on everyone that put themselves forward to be captain and started a vote on Vorte simply because he hadn't watched star wars until this week.  What have I done like that, exactly?  And what about Kawe, your shephard? He is the one that has his minions doing a mafia bandwagon.  He is the one that started out pointing fingers and is now on a campaign to get me lynched.  Seems pretty over-aggressive to me.  

I'm not excusing my actions.  I have nothing to excuse.  I have done nothing except be reasonably active on a forum (a forum on which I am always active, even outside of mafia games) and post the transparent thinking that everyone seems to want posted, but seems to be getting me lynched for some reason...

I don't know how more people aren't finding Kawe's actions highly suspicious.  Ino and Kendo seem to have made the leap to voting.  I know many others have deep suspicions about him.  Not only does he have his band of merry followers railroading me, you seem to want to give him even more power with a captaincy.  You want the (currently) most influential person to have even more votes and the ability to kill anyone that disagrees with him?  I can guarantee you that that will lose us the game.

And Kawe, emo... what?!  I have no idea where you're getting this from.

[Daekesh]

For reference, Kawe's tirade from the first hour of the game:

I am already taking interest in the people who are keen to use such a flimsy pretext to lynch - they're either stupid, sore, or straight-up after lynching an Imperial. Or a combination of the above. So far Shanks and Shiftey already right onto that list. And before I can even finish speaking, Chippen and Vorte chiming in.

That reminds me, Arches, care to explain away your talk of 'the force being strong' with you? I admit it's possible that you're just a huge retard, but in that case it's equally likely one way or the other.

Should also make a note of Nach's reaction to Arches making such an apparant blunder, 'God damnit arches'.

That's a total of 6 people he is casting doubt on... with absolutely no evidence at all. Before I posted.

[Daekesh]

##Unvote: Archz
##Vote: Kawe

It's not about saving myself any more, it's about saving this game from a clear, power-mad rebel.

[Shiftey]

I have to jump in and say I do agree with TTaM's posts. And most of what he mentions have been discussed in my previous posts. Also I am fairly convinced that both Archz and TTaM just started off on a wrong foot and are in fact imperial.

I say it here before anyone else does. I may be wrong about TTaM. Which doesnt matter cause the post you all seem to value is kawe's as a reason to vote for TTaM. Yet kawe's post is increadibly relative and can be interpreted in any way he wants.

I think we are being led the wrong way by certain people. And if my suspicions are correct, majority of captain votes right now are in fact for rebels. It is obvious there will be some imperials and also some rebels running for captain. But those who we can fairly safely say to be imperial, or have less doubt about, their candidacy has been dismissed by the very same people as laughable.

All my posts (except for the one about TTaM) are also connected one to another. Almost creating a pattern of some sort, or a probability of likelihood. Therefore:

##Unvote: TTaM
##Vote: Kawe

[Shiftey]

Apparently Irony is not counting my last vote because of formatting:

##Unvote: TTaM
##Vote: Kawe

[Shiftey]

The next player I am taking a stab at is Yoica:

In his first post he talked about captainship. He said his ideal candidate for captain would be someone who's activate and takes time to formulate their argument well instead of just throwing out random speculation.

His original 3 candidates are Tyler, Delling and Kawe. And none of these fulfill is original statement. Tyler is not activate and all he did was throw out some random accusations. Delling is not very activate at all. And Kawe is activate, by also in his first posts accused so many people that it can be taken as random speculation.

All of that is followed by a sudden support vote for Mouseh. Someone who doesnt fit his criteria either.

I would like an explanation on that sudden change of heart.

[Yoica]

OT: Am I blind but I don't see any differences in your formatting between your vote posts, Shiftey.


Well well we've seen some quality posts since last night. Thanks Emptyy for that great summary!

@Shiftey, your logic is sound, but you could easily swap TTaM <-> Kawe (or a number of other players) in your post and still get a truthful post. You are reasonably fast to switch purely based on a post where TTaM (by your own admission) posts what you've already said.

Your post about captain candidates being dismissed as laughable by some people is odd. With the exception of yourself the candidates that are putting any kind of effort into it are getting the votes and all the other players that put themselves forward as candidates aren't really taking any actions/positions to warrant a vote. As I see it there are 4 candidates worth voting for due to the their involvement (good or bad) in the game; Kawe, Vdti, Mouseh and yourself.

Looking purely at posts Kawe and you make detailed analysis's of what is happening and formulate your posts excellently, making it very easy to subtly steer people in certain directions. Making both of you high-risk choices, because either we hit the jackpot and gain a great captain or we basically give the rebels a win.

Vdti and Mouseh don't post a lot, but when they do post it shows they have a concept of what is happening and aren't easily swayed by what others say. Making them the safer choice.

My only problem with Vdti is that TTaM was a little too pro-active in pushing Vdti forward which makes me suspicious, considering I have TTaM on the top of my rebel list. Hence my vote goes to Mouseh

[Yoica]

His original 3 candidates are Tyler, Delling and Kawe. And none of these fulfill is original statement. Tyler is not activate and all he did was throw out some random accusations. Delling is not very activate at all. And Kawe is activate, by also in his first posts accused so many people that it can be taken as random speculation.

Your post crossed the one I just posted and I think I explain myself there, but here is a short answer to this.

All accusation thrown at the start were random. I mention Delling once and suddenly I'm his fanboi? At the time of the post I was just basing it on outside knowledge since I didn't have anything else to go on. Tyler, I put off at the start and what has transpired since then only confirms that action. Leaving only Kawe and you are correct is saying that he argue things to his benefit, but so do you, me and everyone who posts here. Currently Kawe is as trustworthy as anyone else in the game, no more no less.

[Shiftey]

OT: The formatting is in the code, the needs to be per each line, not for both lines at once, then it screws up the bot

And well done on dodging my argument completely, you did not answer my question at all. And you did not try to defend why your are ignoring your criteria all together.

Also note:

Eetion's support and post is based on Yoica's logic, maybe Eetion would like to reconsider his position.

As I am writting in your new post came in. You are still ignoring the fact kawe accused a fair number of people is inconsistent with your stated preferences.

[Archz]

##Support: Archz

[Yoica]

I'm really lost as to what you want?

Kawe's wild accusations at the start are no differents than TTaM yet you believe TTaM, why? There really aren't full proof argument at this stage of the game for why Kawe is more believable than TTaM or visa-versa. Also if you ignore Kawe's 1st hour all his post are well thought out and formulated. You might not agree with his conclusions, but you can't say they aren't thought out.

As for Mouseh, I believe I have answered that in my previous post.

But getting back to you. Following your own logic where you go after Kawe for his random accusations at the start, I'm lost as to why you don't apply the same standard to TTaM's posts. They are just as wild, but they continue on for a lot longer. You hound for what you precieve to logic flaw in my arguments, but a blind to the fact you are doing the same. I'll be the 1st to admit I don't any solid evidence EITHER way, but Kawe stopped with his wild accusations once the game got going whereas TTaM continued on until he noticed he was going to get lynched. Then he changes his tack, which only strengthen my belief he is guitly.

The way you are jumping from one target to the next and the dogged nature of your 'examinations' make me highly suspicious.